Hello Everyone

[chip off the block]

Why you need stuff from stock? And trust me more often that not its not from stock as you end up with half a kitchen on site.

[Gattaca]

Hello Daniel, Stretch, nsk, KOVKID & PJK

I thought I would post some brief questions about the concept on this thread before putting them onto the main board. They are in essence the nitty gritty of the business idea.

- Who would you prefer to fit between Howden, Magnet Trade or Wren?
- Would you agree to a supply and fit with no upfront payments if you were 100% guaranteed to be paid on completion?
- Could you do full strip out, supply, fit cabinets/worktops/sink/appliances/flooring/splashbacks, offer full corgi/gasafe cert's within 14 days, assuming you had already visited site and full choices were agreed?
- If an average contract price was approx £6,000 would £1,200 for fitting and between £250-£500 margin on supply be enough to attract the very best in the business?

Really happy to hear any of your thoughts, I think I have alot of the answers already but ready for any other points of view

Cheers

Phill

1. Not keen on any of these as the 14 day fit time may get go over
2. Not a chance mate. You buy it from me then I may fit it so I'm dealing with you not a customer who hasn't bought the property yet. Do you mean completion of the job or the sale
3. 14 day would be a great fit time.
4. Nope

Sorry

Hi PJK,

Appreciate your Clints
Hopefully I can offer some reason behind my questions and some answers to your points.

1. The suppliers suggested have national presence and can supply from stock. Other suppliers I spoke to had between 6 & 12 weeks lead times. Because the concept is different to the 'normal' way of buying a kitchen and is involved with a proceeding house sale I have can only realistically offer stock suppliers.

2. I will negate any potential 'risk' for the fitter by only giving the order to actually fit out when the buyer has exchanged contracts on the property. My contract with the house seller would agree the deduction of the whole contract cost from house sale proceeds OR from the exchange deposit monies. The contract also stipulates the 14 day period between exchange of contracts and completion. This is the timeframe for the actual fit-out but would hope it could be competed quicker.

Related to this 14 day timeframe it is not a fixed time on each job. If a partner fitter visit site for quote purposes and see a problem that would mean the projected fit out date would need to be 3 weeks, I can negotiate this into the sales contract.

3. think we agree on this.

4. I am way off with my pricing as other posts have pointed out. I am reviewing this. It is vital to the concept's success that I offer a price which attracts high quality fitters. My initial projections were a bit "Champagne Tastes & Beer Money", I can fix this.


Thanks you very much for replying to my questions.

Regards

Phill

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Hi phil
Just +1 with the lads above.
I would never supply and fit and wait for payment, why would you think this way.? You only need an issue which leads to "..... Your not getting paid until you change it conversation.

The price changes on every fit.
Your best getting a fitter local to you and give him 3-5 different size plans and ask him to price them.

You have to keep the fitter happy, ie price or he will drop you. Then you are left with finding another good fitter like the one you just pissed off. Keeping him happy is the major key to your good idea working.

Hello Prem.

A cornerstone of the idea is that Kitchen Included take ALL the risk for payment from our fitting partners. I am looking to offer a 100% guarantee that the fitter will be paid within 7 days of completion of the job. I know this is a departure from the norm but the way payment is structured is different also. The person actually paying us both is the house seller who has contracted with Kitchen Included to have the agreed price deducted from house sale proceeds. Because of this contract I am more than happy to stand as 100% guarantor on every job.

Your next suggestion is fabulous. I was initially looking to offer a fixed price matrix based on SqM of Kitchen but your suggestion is much better. The other advantage is the 95% of houses on the market already have a floorplan and measurements in the public domain ( Rightmove/Zoopla) so I could give indicative costs subject to the fitters local survey.

Your final point repeats the mantra that anybody connected to the industry has told me
-Keep the fitter happy, pay them properly and communicate clearly with all involved-

I am trying my hardest to make sure I can come up with an offer to appeal to fitters around the UK and the forum has given a huge help in fine tuning this.

Your reply has been very useful, Thanks

Phill

---

- Who would you prefer to fit between Howden, Magnet Trade or Wren?
- Would you agree to a supply and fit with no upfront payments if you were 100% guaranteed to be paid on completion?
- Could you do full strip out, supply, fit cabinets/worktops/sink/appliances/flooring/splashbacks, offer full corgi/gasafe cert's within 14 days, assuming you had already visited site and full choices were agreed?
- If an average contract price was approx £6,000 would £1,200 for fitting and between £250-£500 margin on supply be enough to attract the very best in the business?

I think you're being a little optimistic and perhaps even unrealistic here. No kitchen fitter that I know of would work 14 days for £1200, or that's the way I've read it. That's about £85 a day!!

Most fitters earn £150 - £200 a day so that equates to £2,100 to £2,800 plus another £200 - £300 for your gas and electrical certificates and then all the material costs incurred....another £300 - £400. So, £3,500 before you even start isn't going to leave much change for a kitchen unless it's one of Vance Miller's.

To answer your points:

- None of them

- No way. Money upfront for materials and part payment for kitchen then balance on completion. Nobody would supply a kitchen at trade price anyway.

- Yes, but not always

- Absolutely not. You might get a Pole to work for that but not an independent fitter with all the running costs of a business.

Sorry...

Also, how would this work logistically? Would you refit the kitchen with the previous occupant still living there? I can't imagine how anyone would want to have a load of tradesmen running through their house while they're trying to get packed. And what if they liked the new kitchen and decided not to move after all?

Or do you wait until they move out and fit before the new owner arrives? Most people will be in a chain and will have nowhere to go in the meantime.

A nice idea in principle but a lot of potential pitfalls.

Hiya Stretch,

Many thanks for your replies. You were right about the forum! Great people giving me the unvarnished truth with both barrels - Love it!.

I will try and reply to some of your points,

The 14 day timeframe is really my attempt to gauge an adequate window to do 'most' jobs with time to spare. If the job means you could be in and out with 5 or 6 days that works great. I would want to fix 14 day as a minimum timeframe but could negotiate a long fit-out time should the job reuqire it. I am hoping an experienced fitter would tell me this kind of detail on the costing inspection. It is also one of the unique parts of the offer "a new kitchen BEFORE you move in" so I wnated all parties to have time to complete their work totally.

RE: Suppliers, I have had similar feedback that the suggested suppliers are not people's favorites. My reason for choosing them is due to their ability to supply form stock and national network, Any other suggestions on other suppliers who can supply in this lead time would be welcome.


RE Money upfront - Not surprised I got the most feedback on this and I need to explain this in further detail. The reason I can offer a 100% guarantee is that nothing is ordered before the buyer has exchanged contracts and legally committed to purchasing the house and has made ALL their choices relating to the new kitchen. I would pre empt the choices with the supplying branch 1 week before the projected fit start to ensure everything is in stock. Because the goods are bought on the individual fitters account I am hoping more margin can be offered and have had a brilliant suggestion from a previous poster that they should price the early in the process so the fitter is happy with the costs involved.
I sadly cannot afford to buy the kitchens myself cash, and I am sure a start up company won't get a credit line for more than 3/4 kitchens at a time with a pretty terrible discount. I aim aiming to do 25 - 30 fits a month in the first year.

I have been made aware that I have missed the fitting costs by a mile - will review. Poles are lovely people but I want to get get experienced local fitters around the country and need to pay property

With your last point, what we are offering is the chance to improve the chances of someone selling a house which has a crap kitchen. It is quite evident of your house has a poor kitchen but a real risk to change it yourself hoping a buyer will like ( no accounting for taste Etc), so for the hassle of trades running about in the last 2 weeks of owning the property Versus selling at an even bigger discount I now it''s a price worth paying. The direction of the initial marketing is at empty and probate properties which will see most benefit from the concept anyway

Final point - What if they love the Kitchen and want to stay - YIPPEE! Stretch you have got it!! This why this concept really excites me -
You are selling a house with a crap kitchen - You choose to offer a Kitchen included package - You find a new house to move to -........It's kitchen is not as nice as the ones that the Kitchen Included offer.....MMM what shall I do?........



Thanks again for the welcome to the forum I hope more questions come thick and fast

[Gattaca]

Why you need stuff from stock? And trust me more often that not its not from stock as you end up with half a kitchen on site.

Hi Chip


The "from stock issue" is a logistical issue on the property sale side of the equation.

A normal house sale should take around 12-16 weeks from agreement to completion with lots of key milestones along the way. because the actual exchange of contracts and therefore the move date can alter within this time period, ordering a kitchen from a supplier with a long lead time would cause logistical problems ( who stores it if exchange of contracts is delayed etc). I also don't to order anything until the buyer has 100% committed to the house which in legal terms is the date of the exchange of contracts, up until this point the sale could fail.

I intend to get final colour choices and full specification from our client at least one week before the exchange of contracts deadline and pre-empt the local supply branch with this data. The day after the exchange of contracts the fitter can collect the goods and go ahead with the fit. If the sale fails at the last minute no one is at risk of having paid for goods unnecessarily.

As a sales progresses through these milestones I can give a much more targetted fit out date, we will move from a projected fit date ( within 12 weeks ) to a target fit date ( within 7 days ) to an actual date.

I hope to build a pipeline of target orders for our fitters. It should mean that you would know you have work pre-booked throughout the year.

Happy to take suggestions from you if you have a supplier who can deliver with short lead times.

Regards

Phill

[Daniel]

[quote='PJK' pid='29098' dateline='1348257944']
[quote='Gattaca' pid='29095' dateline='1348227158']

.......

I sadly cannot afford to buy the kitchens myself cash, and I am sure a start up company won't get a credit line for more than 3/4 kitchens at a time with a pretty terrible discount. I aim aiming to do 25 - 30 fits a month in the first year.

.......

25-30 fits a month ...... I have so many questions I'm not sure where to start !!

Later perhaps when I'm not at work.

Daniel

[Gattaca]

[quote='PJK' pid='29098' dateline='1348257944']
[quote='Gattaca' pid='29095' dateline='1348227158']

.......

I sadly cannot afford to buy the kitchens myself cash, and I am sure a start up company won't get a credit line for more than 3/4 kitchens at a time with a pretty terrible discount. I aim aiming to do 25 - 30 fits a month in the first year.

.......

25-30 fits a month ...... I have so many questions I'm not sure where to start !!

Later perhaps when I'm not at work.

Daniel

25 -30 fits per month nationally, not individually. I should have made that clear

[nsk]

Phill

This is just my thoughts on the supply side of things.

If it were me setting this up I would lean more towards finding a local manufacturer for each geographical area.

I use a local company for my carcasses, but everything elso I buy direct (or as close to direct as poss) this keeps my cost down and allows me to build a relationship with suppliers. This means when things go wrong I find my suppliers go that little bit extra to help resolve.

My other thought is that this way you would be offering a better product for a comparable cost, this (imo) would give you a stonger selling point.

[PJK]

Hi Phil,

Why would you want to start by doing 25/30 a month?? Start by doing 3/4 a month and build up to that number. This way you iron the problems out as you go along.

[Gattaca]

Phill

This is just my thoughts on the supply side of things.

If it were me setting this up I would lean more towards finding a local manufacturer for each geographical area.

I use a local company for my carcasses, but everything elso I buy direct (or as close to direct as poss) this keeps my cost down and allows me to build a relationship with suppliers. This means when things go wrong I find my suppliers go that little bit extra to help resolve.

My other thought is that this way you would be offering a better product for a comparable cost, this (imo) would give you a stonger selling point.

Hello NSK

I had not considered using different localised suppliers as I wanted to create the easiest path for the fitter. My assumption was based on around a one stop shop for the fitter to pick up everything in one go. Once the business builds it gives me more leverage on discount for the local fitter also.

I like your idea though as the the buyers would respond to the "better quality at similar price point" as you have suggested. Would the local suppliers who have mentioned be able to deliver the goods in the timescales I have mentioned i.e supply from stock or with 24 hours?

Thanks for you suggestion, It has really go t me thinking.

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Hi Phil,

Why would you want to start by doing 25/30 a month?? Start by doing 3/4 a month and build up to that number. This way you iron the problems out as you go along.

Hi PJK,

HAHA! you are right, I would have to build up to that number. My aim is to launch the business within the capability to scale around the country quickly, but at previous posts have said this relies on attracting great fitters. I think getting to 25 -30 per month from a base of around 50 fitters nationally is achievable in the medium term.

As I get more feedback the concept iterates slightly into something a little different, and I think in simple terms it is becoming a marketing channel for independent kitchen fitters who want to proactively secure more business.
If I can build these types of partnerships I know the concept will work well for all involved.

but you i gotta walk before I can run!

Cheers

Phill

[Daniel]

[quote='PJK' pid='29098' dateline='1348257944']
[quote='Gattaca' pid='29095' dateline='1348227158']

.......

I sadly cannot afford to buy the kitchens myself cash, and I am sure a start up company won't get a credit line for more than 3/4 kitchens at a time with a pretty terrible discount. I aim aiming to do 25 - 30 fits a month in the first year.

.......

25-30 fits a month ...... I have so many questions I'm not sure where to start !!

Later perhaps when I'm not at work.

Daniel

25 -30 fits per month nationally, not individually. I should have made that clear

.....sorry whats the difference ?

25 kitchen fits is 25 kitchen fits, no ?