English V's German

[Colour Republic]

Work in progress on a pair of new builds with almost identical layouts mirroring each other.

One kitchen (Matt White J Profile) is an English kitchen chosen by the developer, the other (Sand grey) kitchen is a German offering chosen by the Clints who bought the build off plan.

The developer is interested to see the final outcome of these 2 kitchens in so much how noticeable the difference in quality is and what the slight extra in price for the german kitchen gets you. The english kitchen is to be completed with white corian worktops and the german to be finished with alpina white silestone quartz worktops.

First up is the English, fitting by myself













Next the German kitchen fitted by that young wipper snapper again














The dryliners were awful on this job, in fact I think they got sacked. You'll notice that on the German kitchen part of it has been reboarded. This is because the wall fell away by about 30mm over 1m. I can work wonders, not miracles! So had them cut it out and do it again.

This picture shows just how much it's been straightened up. The old boards used to be flush with the door liner!!!




The other kitchen wasn't much better although the wall fell away behind the tower units so it's not noticeable or affect the fit.

Still not a bad place to work right on the beach ;)

[PREM]

Will be interested in both of your Clints on the overall difference between them both.
They both look very nice with a good use of Space plugs on jonny english

Very nice setting to work in, i should post one of mine in shit hole inner city with a pile of dog do in the YARD outside. Didn't smile once that week.

Look forward to seeing the finished jobs.

[Colour Republic]

There are some noticeable difference between the 2. Both have pros and cons over the other.

The English cabs are made to my specification and as such some of the Clints are of higher specification than the German cabs. For example, the English cabs are made with colour coded Egger board (Ok it's a white kitchen but if it wasn't they everything is colour coded) and have 2mm abs edging to the cab and shelf fronts and 1mm everywhere else.
The German has white egger board with colour matched 1mm edging to the front and for areas which are not visible they use cheap brown paper facing. What's more the English have full 18mm backs, the German 3mm hardboard. The top rails on the German are cheap pine as opposed to Egger on the English.

Both use the same Blum integrated soft-close hinges, both use Grey Antero blum drawers.

The German feet are slightly better using a big foot, which is something i'm trying to get my English cab maker to do.

The German is a mixture of glued and screwed depending on what they thought would be better for any given unit. The English is glued (although I often ask for the odd unit to come cam and doweled if I know I need to make alterations, like boiler housings for example)

So on a spec sheet, the English cabs appear better. However the Germans work to tighter tolerances... i.e ZERO! The English cabs are good but for example the top rail might be half a mil higher than the side panels when it's glued together. Not a massive issue but you need to take this in to account when leveling and squaring up. Also the odd cab might not have been clamped tight enough when it was glued and now the unit is 601mm wide as opposed to bang on 600mm. Again not a huge difference but you can run your tape over a number of units and find the run is 3-4mm longer than it should be.

The German kitchen screams efficiency, if they don't think an area is worth upgrading, they don't. But that zero tolerance can sometimes be a curse. When ordering this kitchen I asked for certain things to be made over sized so they could be adjusted on site. The peninsular back panel and plinths for example. This confuses the hell out of them "No. No. No, we make it to size, why do you want it bigger?", "Just humor me on this one and make it over sized please", "You crazy English, always doing things twice"

The problems with the dry lining being a perfect example. If you notice on the English kitchen I have placed packers behind the wall units in order for them to sit vertically level and square. This has left around an 8mm gap visible on the last wall unit. Not an issue as I have an over sized end panel to go on which will be scribed to the wall. As shown on the German kitchen the problem was much worse where the wall fell away 30mm. This left me with 2 options, either get the last 2 wall unit cabs remade where I could scribe them to the wall (they don't do end panels in this range), Or get the wall re-boarded. Obviously because the fall away was so stupidly large, I didn't have much of a problem getting the builders to redo it but had the fall only been 5-10mm I think they would have pushed back and resisted. I would have had no option but to get the units remade.

The other plus points with the Germans is that they will ask for all the appliance model numbers so they will ensure the appliances fit perfectly. On this one for example there is a plinth for the fridge freezer to sit on so it lines up with 70/30 doors, the oven towers have had the top doors made to measure so no fillers, the drawer unit under the hob has had the top drawer reduced in height internally and a perforated board installed so that the induction hob doesn't foul the drawers. I can get my English cab makers to do the same but it is for me to supply the spec and drawings of what I want rather than just pinging over some model numbers.

Door wise both are silk/matt finished and both are equally as good but then the doors on the English kitchen are in fact Italian produced. They are great value for money that's whey I use them so much.

The difference in price is around 20% higher on the German per cab.

[snezza]

Pretty much as you have described above Rob is my experience of the differences between British & German kitchens.

I prefer the solid timber rails over the chipboard rails as size for size and thickness for thickness, they are stronger than chipboard especially when they have to be cut to accommodate a hob or sink cut-out.

My German manufacturer uses 8mm backs in both their base & wall units, not hardboard.
Also, they use the same type of leg & boss from what I can tell from your photos.

As I understand it, the reason why the Germans have white interiors on the large majority of their cabinets and then colour co-ordinated showsides is because they think white is cleaner looking and makes it easier to find things inside the cabinet as its lighter.

Not sure about the 20% price difference per cabinet though.....!!!!!?????

Who is the manufacturer of the German kitchen?

EDIT.
The Brown paper edging is old hat now, I haven't seen it used on German kitchens for nearly 10 years......!!!!!

[Colour Republic]

I'm not so sure on the timber rails being better personally. Because on this kitchen the rails are screwed it didn't take a lot for someone to lean on one of the units and it split right down the grain as it's a weak point. Similar situation when you're jigging out for sinks where you need to support it so the vibrations don't split the grain again. But I accept you have a point as well.

The white interiors don't offend me but both my English and Italian suppliers will do whatever I ask them to and a colour matched or even contrasting interior can add a touch of style to some kitchens.

The 20% difference is maybe a bit of a red herring. Firstly this was a one off from Schuller so I paid a slight premium because i'm not one of their dealers, add to the fact the sales go through a UK distributor I wasn't seeing the benefit of the current strong pound over the Euro like I do when I buy direct.

Schuller is hardly a high-end brand either. So it's all relative. So whilst i've titled the thread 'English V's German' it's really a comparison between 2 mid-priced brands. Even then i'm sure we all have different perceptions of what is Budget, Entry, Mid and High-end. The developer was under the impression that just the fact the kitchen was of German decent it meant it was high-end but we all know it hardly scratches the surface on what can be spent on a kitchen.

[snezza]

The use of "Screws" to hold the rails in place on a German kitchen is a surprise TBH with you...!!! I can see that also being a problem when, for example, you need to cut the rail to the shape of a sink bowl.

My German supplier has gone over to a metal removable front rail recently on their Sink bases. On the last 3 kitchens I've fitted of their's, it has helped a lot especially on that Corian job as the rail is about 100mm high by 10mm deep. It can be clipped on & off at any time during and after installation.

I do agree with you on the colour matched interiors. I think, depending on the colour of the doors, a matching interior can look good. On a new German display we have in the showroom, we specified a grey linen carcass finish with a Natural Concrete laminate door. It definitely looks better with the Grey colour than it would have with just a White interior.

The current price in Euro's is better than its been for some time and buying direct rather than through a distributor is always going to be favourable.

[Daniel]

..........
The other plus points with the Germans is that they will ask for all the appliance model numbers so they will ensure the appliances fit perfectly. On this one for example there is a plinth for the fridge freezer to sit on so it lines up with 70/30 doors, the oven towers have had the top doors made to measure so no fillers, the drawer unit under the hob has had the top drawer reduced in height internally and a perforated board installed so that the induction hob doesn't foul the drawers. I can get my English cab makers to do the same but it is for me to supply the spec and drawings of what I want rather than just pinging over some model numbers.
.......

Obviously I tend to focus more on the aesthetics but I think this is one of the biggest things that let down 'mid range' UK kitchens.

One of my Italian suppliers on certain kitchen models even want to know the sink and tap specification as well so they can supply the correct front and rear rails should either need rebating.

[snezza]

..........
The other plus points with the Germans is that they will ask for all the appliance model numbers so they will ensure the appliances fit perfectly. On this one for example there is a plinth for the fridge freezer to sit on so it lines up with 70/30 doors, the oven towers have had the top doors made to measure so no fillers, the drawer unit under the hob has had the top drawer reduced in height internally and a perforated board installed so that the induction hob doesn't foul the drawers. I can get my English cab makers to do the same but it is for me to supply the spec and drawings of what I want rather than just pinging over some model numbers.
.......

Obviously I tend to focus more on the aesthetics but I think this is one of the biggest things that let down 'mid range' UK kitchens.

One of my Italian suppliers on certain kitchen models even want to know the sink and tap specification as well so they can supply the correct front and rear rails should either need rebating.

In my opinion, these are the sort of things that differentiate quality from run-of-the-mill.

It also speeds up the installation time, therefore, often reduces the installation costs.

[Colour Republic]

Obviously I tend to focus more on the aesthetics but I think this is one of the biggest things that let down 'mid range' UK kitchens.

One of my Italian suppliers on certain kitchen models even want to know the sink and tap specification as well so they can supply the correct front and rear rails should either need rebating.

It's nice when they adjust rails for hobs and sinks to suit and it comes re-edged. Comprex do the same.

But with regards to fillers, the majority of German and Italian suppliers don't hold stock (unless they are budget brands). They have a reduced range of styles but then let you finish them in 200 different ways. With everything being made to order they have more flexibility in custom sized doors and panels. Of course this is reflected in extra lead times. But you already know all of that!


I suppose the point is in the UK a mid-range kitchen is affordable for most and I find they want them on much shorter lead times and that means holding stock sizes rather than everything being made to order. Clints that are spending £25k+ usually start planning for a new kitchen months in advance rather than weeks so it opens the possibility of doing something a bit more bespoke.