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RE: Electrics Confusion - StanageDave - 02-09-2015
(01-09-2015, 09:33 AM)jonny round boy Wrote: It is a very grey area - I've been looking into it recently with a view to doing my own electrics.
Kitchens are no longer considered a 'special area', and as such fall outside the scope of Part P, so what you can do in a kitchen now is greater than before.
You can replace/connect 'like-for-like' items, so if you remove an oven or hob and fit a new one into the same connection point, you're fine.
You can now change or add to existing circuits, so add additional sockets, spurs, lights etc. HOWEVER the rules are very ambiguous about the level of testing required for such additions.
What you definitely cannot do is add any new circuits, i.e. connections to the CU.
I've looked into getting myself certified (for electrics, before anyone Clints!) and to do so you'd need to do the 17th edition course (price varies from £170-£500 depending on style/delivery of the course), then the domestic installers course (£400-£500), then pay one of the schemes around £500/year, and spend £500-£1000 on test equipment and have it calibrated every year
Oh, and as an aside, the rules on CU's are changing on 1st January - as of that date, any new CU installed (either as a replacement, or an additional one) must be in a fireproof enclosure, so either a metal CU, or a plastic one inside a metal box.
Have just pulled this off an issue of the elecsa newsletter 'Spark' from Feb 2013. Not posted link as I'm not sure if that's allowed on the forum, but it says:
RANGE OF NOTIFIABLE WORK
Under the revised regulations, electrical work
undertaken in kitchens (such as adding a new
socket) or work outdoors (such as installing a
new security light), electric floor heating, ELV
lighting and central heating controls will no
longer be notifiable unless a new circuit is
required.
That suggests to me that pretty much anything a kitchen fitter is normally required to do needn't involve any paperwork at all, unless they choose to entangle themselves with NICEIC or similar because they want to add new circuits, which is surely hardly ever needed except in a new build or a rewire. That's a surprise. Didn't realise the government had ever done anything useful... Or have I got my wires crossed
?
RE: Electrics Confusion - kingfisher - 02-09-2015
Has as been said. Although not notifiable the circuit still has to be tested and paper work provided.
Before commencing work the general installation should be checked for compliance. ie is there an adequate earthing system, is there an RCD present, etc. The last person to work on the circuit is responsible for the full circuit and all or any faults that it may have.
basically if you're changing a socket front and the circuit is wired in 1.00mm with a 30amp re-wireable fuse then it is your responsibility to change the fuse/wiring to meet current regulations. Changing "like for like" is not as simple as it seems.
RE: Electrics Confusion - jonny round boy - 02-09-2015
(02-09-2015, 07:37 AM)kingfisher Wrote: Has as been said. Although not notifiable the circuit still has to be tested and paper work provided.
Ok, so exactly what tests are required? What paperwork must be provided, and to whom?
RE: Electrics Confusion - andy5405 - 02-09-2015
Some useful links to add to the confusion:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/third-party-certification-schemes-for-domestic-electrical-work
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/294483/3rd_Party_Cert_Scheme_MTC.pdf
http://www.electricalcompetentperson.co.uk/Regulations-Explained
http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/guides-and-advice/building-regulations/england/
Fom the 1st link:
All electrical work in dwelling must be carried out in line with Part P of the Building Regulations. From 6 April 2014 a person who is registered with a third party certification scheme for electrical installations in dwellings will be able to check domestic electrical work that is undertaken by others and certify that it is compliant with the building regulations.
From the 4th link:
From April 2014 you will also be able to employ a non-registered electrical installer who has appointed a registered third party certifier to carry out the required inspection and testing of the work both during and on completion.
Part P hasn't gone away at all and actually reading the above links only confirms what I always thought. The emphasis has always been that a homeowner or landlord is bound by law to ensure that work meets the requirements of Part P of the Building Regs. Using a registered electrician who self certifies (i.e becomes a building inspector) is one way of ensuring that happens but not the only way.
Electricians registered to various bodies have always been able to self certify their own work. The opportunity has always existed for Building Control to verify the electrical work of others and is theoretically no different to a building inspector visiting a site to check any aspect of the regulations. In reality building inspectors don't check electrical work, they sub it to third parties who are registered with various schemes. This may have been twisted/misconstrued by many in the industry to mean that registered electricians are the only ones actually able to carry out the work. Carrying out work is a very different thing to assuming the role and responsibility of a government inspector.
The reality seems to be that a complete idiot can dig your footings, build your house and do electrical work provided it satisfies the regulations. That's the key IMHO, although simplistic, it's not so much who does it, it's much more about whether or not it meets the regs.
All that said the regs are highly confusing and it's easy to see why there are so many different opinions.
RE: Electrics Confusion - kingfisher - 02-09-2015
(02-09-2015, 08:23 AM)jonny round boy Wrote:(02-09-2015, 07:37 AM)kingfisher Wrote: Has as been said. Although not notifiable the circuit still has to be tested and paper work provided.
Ok, so exactly what tests are required? What paperwork must be provided, and to whom?
The tests are dependant on what work was done. A visual check that all services (gas, water, etc) are earthed and appropriate sized cable is used and correct protective devices is a start, usually followed by at least a Zs test and insulation test. The Zs is a good one as it also picks voltage and polarity as well.
There are generally 2 options for the "paperwork" either a "full blown" installation certificate or a "small works certificate". The paperwork is given (whilst retaining copies) to the person who ordered the work.
RE: Electrics Confusion - bitzz - 03-09-2015
(02-09-2015, 10:58 PM)Windmill man Wrote: Just my tupennce worth, I looked into getting relevant qualifications to do my own electrical work in kitchen fits, by the time I took the courses passed the exams bought the test equipment etc etc etc . It was just not worth it. My insurance company advised me , that for them to insure me , I would have to jump through every hoop in the kingdom. So now, when I price installs I do not price any electrical work at all, I recommend three electricians, I work with, on a regular basis, and the customer deals with them directly. I wont even connect a hard wired appliance. The electricians I work with basically tell me that the last guy to touch the electrics in the property, is responsible and the fall guy if anything goes wrong.I work this way also sparkies just deal straight with customer saves me a lot hassle and grief, they give me work in return like redoing walls etc where they've been working, simple two way exchange of working probably will not work for everyone but does for me.
RE: Electrics Confusion - StanageDave - 03-09-2015
(03-09-2015, 07:16 AM)bitzz Wrote:(02-09-2015, 10:58 PM)Windmill man Wrote: Just my tupennce worth, I looked into getting relevant qualifications to do my own electrical work in kitchen fits, by the time I took the courses passed the exams bought the test equipment etc etc etc . It was just not worth it. My insurance company advised me , that for them to insure me , I would have to jump through every hoop in the kingdom. So now, when I price installs I do not price any electrical work at all, I recommend three electricians, I work with, on a regular basis, and the customer deals with them directly. I wont even connect a hard wired appliance. The electricians I work with basically tell me that the last guy to touch the electrics in the property, is responsible and the fall guy if anything goes wrong.I work this way also sparkies just deal straight with customer saves me a lot hassle and grief, they give me work in return like redoing walls etc where they've been working, simple two way exchange of working probably will not work for everyone but does for me.
"I wont even connect a hard wired appliance" seems a bit extreme. If this is what it's come to now, WTF is the firm I spoke to doing asking their fitters to do any electrics? The manager I spoke to quite clearly said we'd be expected to handle the lot, apart from gas, where we'd need to find a GasSafe plumber where necessary. I get the impression that plenty of fitters are doing elecs.
Is it really true that if you connect a hob you then become responsible if the light in their en-suite is dodgy? NICEIC may require all sorts of paperwork to justify the fees they charge but that's not the same as a legal requirement to notify building control, is it? What was the point in the Part P regulations being changed to simplify things in kitchens if fully registered sparks are the only ones who can touch anything?
RE: Electrics Confusion - PJK - 03-09-2015
Isn't the company just saying the cost of an electrician comes out of the price offered for the job not paid separately by themselves???